High up on a ledge of a marble quarry a sculpture waits to emerge from the rough walls that imprison it. Flesh and stone, sculptor and sculpture, dance around the question of who creates whom.
Directing: Nancy Allison 
Choreography: Laura Boato
​Editing: Laura Cappellesso 
Performers: Laura Boato and Michela Lorenzano
Cinematography: Luca Fortini and Simone Verona
Music: Bottega Baltazar
Producer: Nancy Allison, with support from INDACO, Fondazione Arkad
Release date: 2016

Artist Interview: ​LAURA CAPPELLESSO (editor)

Laura cappellesso details

Instagram: @lacappeinsta
Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/lauracappellesso

IntervieW Transcript: LAURA CAPPELLESSO 

 I would like to begin from the very beginnings for you, i.e. how you got involved with Marmo in the first place?

Laura Cappellesso: That was a proposal of choreographer Laura Boato with whom I have worked in the framework of Beinnale Danza in Venice. She asked me to get involved in a project which was already ongoing. That was a project in which she was the choreographer with Nancy Allison from New York, and Nancy Allison was the producer of the whole project. So she presented to me a very stimulating project they were working on, and she asked me if I wanted to get in as an editor. I was ravished by that because it was a project of a performance they had been doing in Versilia, in Tuscany where Michelangelo took the marble he used for his works. It was a performance based on the idea of the creative process; they had been interpreting and conveying this idea through the performance. The performance was finished, they had done all their work and now with the editing they wanted to give life to all of the material they had. And so I was ravished because Michelangelo has always been my favorite artist, and also what appealed to me was the fact that here there was a performance trying to explore the vision of a sculptor, that had to be transformed into a work or video. So there were different languages involved and I appreciated this, I liked this very much. That was a sort of challenge for me in a context which I really liked.

Was Laura, when she approached you, aware that Michelangelo meant a lot to you as an artist?

Laura Cappellesso: I don't think she was aware about Michelangelo in particular but I think she is very sensitive and I think she felt that the project might be interesting to me and might appeal to me and I might give something to the project.

And when you spoke originally about her approaching you, you said that she gave you just a few hints about where the project is and one thing you just mentioned is that they tried to transfer the methodology and the vision of a sculptor, the way he works, into the way the film is made. And then you also said that you felt the need to go back and read through many materials about Michelangelo and about the way he worked. And you also mentioned that you went to many of the sites in Italy to research him. Why was this extensive research into his life important to you at this stage and how did it affect the way you approached the editing?

Laura Cappellesso: It was really essential to get into the world of Michelangelo, or at least how I feel the world Michelangelo was. It was essential because I had to catch a sort of energy from his work, from his vision, from his imaginative world. So I really wanted to go through all his works. So I went to Rome and  Florence and I stood in front of his works to catch something that went beyond the feeling, some feelings and emotions that the works could convey to me. I also had the opportunity to get into some films on his life, to become aware of his way of working and all the aspects of not only the historical background, but also the individual background of his life - his attitude, his ways of being with people, social habits. It was important for me; I wanted to get some feeling, some energy. I had to get to the core of his work. I didn't know how or I didn't know what I was looking for. But it was as if I had to look for something about his world, his imaginative world, his works… 

Was there anything in specific that you found that really struck you? 

Laura Cappellesso: Yeah. When I was in front of the statue of Moses in Santa Maria in Vincoli, it was a really emotional moment that conveyed a lot to me - this sort of power, strength, the connection between the power of stone and the mystic spirituality of stone, so matter and spirit. I mean, this polarity and the way in which he managed to get this polarity together. That was fantastic, I think.

And the film finishes with a quote from Michelangelo, which says: In every block of marble, I see a statue as clearly as if I were standing in front of it. Was that quote chosen by Nancy or did you put it into the edit?

Laura Cappellesso: That quote was the beginning of the whole project; one of the first things we were talking about and we were discussing with Laura and Nancy. So it was part of the whole thing and it was really the core of the film. So it was naturally there. And it was one of the things that connected me to Michelangelo - this idea of seeing something, a work of art inside matter and trying to get all the chips out and set this work of art free. So, it's a sort of imprisoned individual that needs to be set free. So this idea of prison and freedom (again, we have this polarity), and the way in which Michelangelo tries to and manages to solve this was fascinating to me and to Laura and Nancy, because that was really the beginning of the whole discussion.

This setting of work of art free  makes me think of the process of editing, because in a way, that's exactly what you're doing as an editor. You're given this rushes - many, many, many hours of camera work - and then you need to sculpt something out of them. Does that relate to the way you approach editing?

Laura Cappellesso: Definitely. Definitely. And when I was editing it, at least at the beginning, I felt exactly this. I felt I had a lot of material and it was sort of a chaos. I didn't know how to find a way into it. So I imagined Michelangelo in front of a block of stone. And in that block of stone, he certainly could see something. But there must have been a lot of possible statues, works of art, individuals coming out of stone. But he had to find the right path to get them. And in a way, I felt the same process. I was there with all this material, with a lot of rushes, and all these rushes had numberless paths inside them. I tried to get into a path. And then I said, but that couldn't be different, that could act in different way, so if I get to another point and I take the point before and I put them together the meaning is completely different, the rhythm is completely different. So I found a little bit puzzled at the beginning. I was afraid of that but at the same time I was fascinated by that because that was a creative process. And I tried to to make my way, to make my path into all these material. I tested different methods. I tried to cut some parts and then placed them in different ways and other methods.

So by the sounds of it, the ordering of sequences was not determined prior to your editing, you weren’t given ideas of Nancy or Laura on how to approach the edit. You actually created the sequence as we see it in the end.

Laura Cappellesso: Yeah, definitely. Actually, what I appreciated and what made me really free to create was the fact that at the beginning Laura told me: we had imagined a sort of narrative of the work, of the whole work, but you have to feel free not to adhere to that narrative, you can find any other way of expressing the emotions. So feel free. So that was the basic starting point and I really felt free. So I decided little by little to focus on certain aspects and to marginalize other aspects. But everything was there in the rushes so the fact that I tried to find my path inside all this material was really demanding and fascinating at the same time.

And you speak that you decided to focus on some aspects and marginalize some other aspects. Which ones did you focus on and which ones were marginalized?

Laura Cappellesso: So, for example, for me, it was essential to focus on solidity, power of stone, the tactile feature of stone. For me, it was very important and I wanted to maintain this solidity and I wanted to emphasize polarities. So there was solidity, marble was that and dance movement, the moving bodies were something different. So I wanted to emphasize this difference, which little by little dampens into something else. So I completely disregarded all the rushes with drone for example and I emphasized immobility, solidity and immobility.

And talking about the movement, the movements in the film are quite sensous. Bodies of the dancers explore the relationship and the connection with the rock surfaces. And also it's evident in the way they move together because their bodies touch. So it's quite a tactile way of moving. And then also this haptic visuality is encouraged by the camera framing; we can see quite a lot of close ups. How did you approach this idea of haptic visuality which seems quite central to the film in your editing process?

Laura Cappellesso: That was really a very important feature of my editing. So I focused on that, I liked that and I felt that it would provide the feelings, the sensations, the emotions I wanted to convey. So I used all the technical methods to get there. I used close-ups even if I had to reframe the rashes. And then I repeated some images, I repeated stones because that stone is always there and you have to be aware of that so I emphasized this aspect.

So you zoomed into some images in the editing process? Some of the close-ups were actually your intervention into the image, they weren't actually recorded as a close-up originally?

Laura Cappellesso: Yeah, I intervened in that and tried to use some close ups which were not there at the beginning. This is something which I do not like to do very much, but in this case I had to follow that path. So I did this and I sow that it was good, that it conveyed what I wanted to.

You spoke to me a bit about feeling freedom in your creative process; that Nancy entrusted the project to you. And you also spoke about the methodology that you used in making the film. So you decided, for instance, not to show the rough-cuts to Nancy as you were editing but to wait only until the project was fully edited and you were happy with the edits to actually show the work to her. Why is this working methodology important to you? Why is it important to you to have this space before somebody else enters it? And how did Nancy respond to that as a director of the film?

Laura Cappellesso: Well, I think this is something very important to me. And I discovered it while doing it because I didn't know that. And I felt that I had to have complete freedom in making choices, in trying some paths and then getting back and then trying something different without justification. Just to test and then leave the project for some days and then get back to it. And, you know, I feel that in this part of the process, I need to be alone with myself. It's a sort of a very fresh material which is not as consolidated and I can be influenced by opinions, ideas and so on. But if I'm not strong in my ideas, because I'm not sure of what I've done, it's difficult for me to maintain a balance. So I prefer to have time and freedom to work on it and to get to a certain point, which is okay. It's still a draft, a rough material, but it's almost finished. I mean, it has reached an almost completed structure. If I'm satisfied with that structure, which I have reached, then okay, I can discuss it and I'm very happy to discuss it with other people, it's very enriching, but I have to get to that moment. If it's before, it compromises a little bit the whole editing for me.

It's real courage also from Nancy's point of view, as a Director, that she entrusted the project in such a way to you. Or maybe it even didn't require courage because she really found her editor that she could have given this project to. She felt that you are taking the project in the right direction and speaking about trust, we also spoke about this importance of trust a bit yesterday, not only in regards to this project but also in regards of the way that you work with other filmmakers and other creative people on the films that you direct. It's about finding the right team of people that you feel are all working on the same project and you can let them do their work without needing to constantly tell them what to do. What does this concept of trust mean in your practice? 

Laura Cappellesso: Well, I think this is very essential and I think that if I choose an artist or a director of photography or a choreographer or something like that, it's essential that I choose that person because I know how she or he works. I know the person and their professional value and I stop there. I say: okay, this is my team and I trust these people. And what is important is to share a vision. I think this is really the most essential element, not only at the beginning but throughout the whole project. So to share and continue to share the vision. When you have a very strong vision together and you trust people doing that, everyone is free to give what they have to the project, to enrich the project. These are methods, methodologies our work. There are different methods. I think it depends on the character of the person or the attitudes. For me, this is essential. I couldn't do it in another way.

And then you also spoke in relation to Marmo how every different edit, every different way of putting the sequences and the images into sequences would create a particular rhythm. So I'd like to speak a bit about the rhythm that you found for the film. What effected that particular pace? Was it already there in the way the dancers moved? Because, it seems to me as if they are moving very slowly. Or is that the effect of your edit?

Laura Cappellesso: There was a rhythm originally in the performance and that rhythm conformed with the vision I had and we shared. So I felt that rhythm was really the good rhythm. Anyhow, I've made some choices sometimes and also I put the scenes into a sort of narrative, very light narrative but which was not completely there at the beginning, in the performance. So I made some choices. The rhythm was there at the beginning, in the performance, but I intervened in some way. I used the rhythm to convey the idea the film had to convey.

And the music came only after. You actually found the musicians and you suggested them to  Nancy and she liked them and you took the edit to them. Before we go and talk about who they are, I'm also curious whether while you were editing, although there wasn't the music attached to the project at that stage, whether you were already hearing some sort of music, imagining the kind of music that could eventually become part of it?

Laura Cappellesso: Well, actually, I imagined not really music but sounds. What was important for me at that moment was the essentiality. Stone. Matter. The essential elements without music, with silence. And little by little, I imagined some sounds, some music getting into it more. That came spontaneously. But I couldn’t really define it. I didn't know. Maybe it was some sort of feeling, but I couldn't define it.

And how did you then eventually come to the musicians that you chose?

Laura Cappellesso: That was interesting because I had come across Bottega Baltazar some months before. They were playing under a huge oak in the countryside. And it was really a very good landscape with this sort of particular music. I was fascinated by their music, but also by their attitude, by their choices. They choose some particular landscapes to play. And they don't do big concerts but all these small concerts in particular places in the mountains or …. always connected with the countryside. So there is always this element of nature, which I appreciate very much.

And why was this element relevant to Marmo, in your view? 

Laura Cappellesso: I couldn't say. I mean, I really don’t know, but they felt like the right choice. And I felt that they matched perfectly. It was as if they had been chosen, they had to be there. I felt they would create something absolutely fitting with the vision of the film. I felt we had a sort of common vision. It was a feeling and I wanted to trust this feeling. I trusted them. And so I talked about them to Laura and Nancy, and they listened to some music and appreciated it. 

Talking about having a feeling for something… So you had an intuition. What role does intuition play in your work?

Laura Cappellesso: Well, a very important role. And also, I try to encourage this. I try to encourage intuition and less reason. And in the creative process, I always rely on intuition and then I try to understand rationally why I had that intuition. I try to use both faculties.

Is there a particular process that you employ in order to encourage the intuitive aspect within yourself? Something that brings you into this space of intuition, especially in times when maybe you're under a deadline, when things try to remove you from this space of intuition. What do you do then?

Laura Cappellesso: Well, I need to take my time. I know there are deadlines but if I have to do a work and do it with a certain quality, I really need my time. So I need my time to read something … In this case about Michelangelo. To watch the films about him, to go and stand in front of his works. I need to do that. And I try to leave the emotions to work in me. So I put myself in the situation where I know that there might come some emotions and I leave the emotions to work. That's why I need time.

Before you sit down to edit a film, is there a certain ritual that you have?

Laura Cappellesso: I’ll take my time. I’ll try to relax. I’ll try to be with a fresh mind. That's all.

Going back to the music, to the involvement of Bottega Baltazar. So you took the edit to them. What were the few sentences that you shared with them at that point and what was their initial reaction to the film?
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Laura Cappellesso: That was a really fascinating meeting because I went to meet them in Padova where they live. I had my computer to show them the video. I had some books. Actually, I had the biography on Michelangelo, where I highlighted some interesting sentences connected with music - the sound of the hammer, the chisel and so on. That had really appealed to me when I read that. And so I went there and I tried to explain to them the whole project and the vision. Again, here, what was important was the vision. So what we wanted to convey and the role of music in the film and I knew they would understand because as I said, we share the common vision in a way.

At one point in the film, very subtly and almost seamlessly, the film transitions from black and white into colour. When was this creative choice made? Was it something that Nancy always had in mind? Or did this choice to transition from black and white into the colour came to you during the editing?

Laura Cappellesso: Well, actually, the film was in colour to start with. I began to edit it in colour. But after one of my visits to Rome, in which I was in contact with stone and with statues of Michelangelo, I felt: no, I can't edit it in colour, I have to edit it in black and white. The essential colours. The sensuality even here. I felt that colour or black and white might have been an opportunity for me, for the editing to convey the emotions of the film. So it was very different to see the film in colour and then in black and white. And when I tried, when I turned it to black and white, I saw it's completely different and it's the right thing to do. And when I showed it to Laura and Nancy, they were enthusiastic. … But then I felt, as I was editing, that at a certain moment, this black and white gradually changed and it had to get some colour. I don't know what happened. I don't know why. But as the performer grew in a way, she took her form, and so I felt that the colour had to be introduced there because it was a change. It was sort of: okay, now she's getting into the world, she is ready for the world. And it was something that presented her to us in a different way. So I thought that was the natural end of the process.

And how did working on this particular project and having this experience of connecting with the artist that has meant so much to you throughout your life changed your subsequent creative projects?

Laura Cappellesso: I think that this project, which was very important to me and the first project where I was not the Director, was very important for me as a person and also for me in a professional way because I had the opportunity to go through methodologies, methods. I experimented, I tested some editing methods and I became more aware of the emotions that each editing choice may produce. I really became more aware of the emotions that a cut, in a particular moment can provoke, or the use of repetition may provoke, or the use of black and white may provoke. And this was extremely useful from professional point of view. And from the personal point of view, it was a good experience of sharing different points of view of the three of us while we all share the same vision. There were different points of view in some elements and scenes, different ways of approaching the some scenes, with different feelings. And it was extremely useful to share all these different points because I became aware of differences and I got to negotiate sometimes, and to justify my vision and to understand the vision of the others. So it was useful.

At one point, early on in your filmmaking practice, you were quite engaged with Arab cinema, especially the Moroccan new wave cinema. I'm wondering whether the exposure to this particular style of filmmaking aesthetic has left any effect on your own work?

Laura Cappellesso: Well, I don't really know. I've not thought about it very much. It's something that I have integrated into my feeling, into my way of seeing films, of making films. But I think there is an aesthetic feature of these films that has passed to my way of making films. 

Is there a particular thing that you recognize? 

Laura Cappellesso: I think colours, the large range of colours which the films I watched had. But also … movement, dance which was very present in many of these films. There was always this element of movement, of dance, of songs as part of life, as part of the social rituals, very embedded in life. So I got this element.

And what role does dance play in your life personally?
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Laura Cappellesso: I like movement and dance very, very much. I'm not a dancer, at least not in an institutional way. But I think movement and the discovery of the body in movement is essential. And also to discover one's body, the potentialities of the body. And also to discover the connection between the movement of the body and the solidity of other parts of the world. I like this.
"It was really essential to get into the world of Michelangelo because I had to catch a sort of energy from his work and his vision; from his imaginative world."
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